karajan missa solemnis review

karajan missa solemnis review

Find release reviews and credits for Beethoven: Missa Solemnis - Herbert von Karajan on AllMusic - 1998 You can still see all customer reviews for the product. In his Missa Solemnis, Beethoven grasped heavenward hoping to touch the face of a God he could neither see nor hear, in a supreme effort to bolster his own inner convictions. The visual certainly adds to the splendour of the performance and the camera focus is always on the participants. User Reviews Review this title 1 Review. Top subscription boxes – right to your door, See all details for Beethoven: Missa Solemnis, © 1996-2020, Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates. I find that having the ability to see the conductor, choir and orchestra considerably add to the enjoyment and appreciation of this masterpiece. Excellent, in every way. Skip to main content. As is common with vocal/orchestral recordings, many orchestral details are obscure or inaudible. Buy Beethoven: Missa Solemnis by Karajan, Herbert Von, Berliner Philharmoniker, Beethoven, Ludwig Van from Amazon's Classical Music Store. Rotten Tomatoes, home of the Tomatometer, is the most trusted measurement of quality for Movies & TV. Tim Ashley. Barbican, London. Your recently viewed items and featured recommendations, Select the department you want to search in, A fiery, heroic Missa Solemnis, one of the best, Reviewed in the United States on May 14, 2006. Other special versions are: Karajan on Testament from 50's, Böhm mono version with BPO, Erich Kleiber from 1948 and I like also Levine from Salzburg, Gardiner, and of course Karajan with Janowitz because of Janowitz. The definitive site for Reviews, Trailers, Showtimes, and Tickets Your recently viewed items and featured recommendations, Select the department you want to search in. The changes in volume and tempi within each section are often arbitrary, abrupt, and lead to a clumsiness of structure that is at times unnerving. They hardly ever sing solo, sometimes in duet, but for the most part in unison. Arturo Toscanini’s British visits are celebrated in this set, with another Immortal Performances Missa solemnis (see Fanfare 39:1 for my review of their issue of Toscanini’s 1935 New York performance). 123. Reviewed in the United States on January 28, 2014. See All Audience Reviews I was waiting for somebody to post this question. Reference Recording: Klemperer’s Missa Solemnis Still Delivers. Client que je recommande pour sa grande qualité de produit ! 123 - Herbert von Karajan on AllMusic There are no featured audience reviews for Karajan: Beethoven: Missa Solemnis at this time. The recordings have been remastered at 24-bit/192 kHz. Fast, FREE delivery, video streaming, music, and much more. This is a joyous, life-affirming Missa Solemnis with the excitement of a performance occasion and complete commitment from the orchestra, chorus, and soloists. are splendid. The content you’re trying to view is for. The passion and fervor of the Verdi has been replaced by a heavy religious devotion that prolongs this already lengthy work. I was waiting for somebody to post this question. Missa Solemnis: Beethoven, Price, Ludwig, Gedda, Karajan: Amazon.ca: Music. Instead, our system considers things like how recent a review is and if the reviewer bought the item on Amazon. BEETHOVEN: Missa Solemnis in D Op. Beethoven: Missa Solemnis – review 4 / 5 stars 4 out of 5 stars. Yet it's never sounded so good as it does via EMI's latest CD incarnation. Hide Spoilers. Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Christa Ludwig, Nicolai Gedda, Nicola Zaccaria. The soloists are in fine form and there are signs that Karajan was enjoying himself. Missa Solemnis is a sweeping landscape that reflects Beethoven's phenomenonal grasp of music. It took me to the age of 80, and through the genius of a conductor of similar age, to plumb the depths of its turgidity and to discover there a sublimely celestial core of sound that illuminates the entire work. The three components of the score - chorus, orchestra, and solo quartet - all present great difficulties, and Beethoven's titanic conception can be cumbersome and baffling, with its sudden harmonic jolts and high-flying choral entries that are almost unsingable. Fri 24 Feb 2006 06.54 EST "The gates of Heaven close against a perverse race that cries for peace but makes war" - … I am indebted to "Jack T." for the tip-off regarding this splendid live performance by Kubelik and the superb Bavarian Radio Orchestra in 1977. Singverein der Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde, Wien. Reviewed in the United Kingdom on August 13, 2016. © 2008-2020, Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates, HERBERT VON KARAJAN - MISSA SOLEMNIS - DVD, See all details for HERBERT VON KARAJAN - MISSA SOLEMNIS - DVD. Complete your Beethoven*, Mozart* - Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert von Karajan collection. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders. A couple of quibbles: the solo violin in the Sanctus is too closely miked, which mitigates some of the beauty of the playing, and that sour oboe of the 70s BRSO sometimes compromises the otherwise fine wind playing. Thu 12 Apr … Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders. In terms of excitement and intensity, Kubelik's live 1977 Missa Solemnis is hair-raising. Reviewed in the United Kingdom on November 26, 2011. Disabling it will result in some disabled or missing features. Much of it is difficult, for listener as well as the performers. See All Audience Reviews Karajan: Beethoven: Missa Solemnis Quotes. The story of Karajan’s Philharmonia ‘Missa Solemnis’ was always a stunted one and it is all the more the pity that EMI’s top executives should have seen the wrong side of things as there is definitely nothing wrong with the superb performance. The middle movements, the Gloria and the Credo, feature passionate and fiery opening sections and lengthy fugues for their conclusions. Here, the opening choral statement of “Kyrie” is awesome in effect, the … Nonetheless, despite a couple of very small problems, it is a beautiful performance and captures 'Missa Solemnis' feel, beauty and dramatic power throughout. Discover releases, reviews, track listings, recommendations, and more about Beethoven* - Herbert Von Karajan, Philharmonia Orchestra London*, Singverein Der Gesellschaft Der Musikfreunde Wien* - Missa Solemnis D-Dur Op. Von Karajan and host of others did a sterling job. Why not register today and enjoy the following great benefits: Free access to 5 subscriber-only reviews per month; Unlimited access to news, features, blogs, awards and artist content; Weekly email newsletter This is bad enough when just one is singing, but when they try to blend without smoothing out their pitch expression, it's just awful. This performance, taped live by Bavarian Radio, was never on LP as far as I know. Why conductors tolerate this will forever be a mystery to me. This DVD of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis is dramatic, well sung and, especially, well conducted. Philharmonia Orchestra Herbert von Karajan. Select Your Cookie Preferences. Find helpful customer reviews and review ratings for HERBERT VON KARAJAN - MISSA SOLEMNIS - DVD at Amazon.com. His is an energetic and inspiring reading of this monumental work. Not to forget Toscanini whose Beethoven is often dry and hard, but his all M.S. Read honest and unbiased product reviews from our users. Find helpful customer reviews and review ratings for Beethoven: Missa Solemnis at Amazon.com. Find helpful customer reviews and review ratings for Beethoven: Missa Solemnis; Mozart: Coronation Mass at Amazon.com. Walter Berry, Wiener Singverein, Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert von Karajan - Missa Solemnis D-Dur Op. Buy Beethoven: Missa Solemnis by Karajan, Herbert Von, Berliner Philharmoniker, Beethoven, Ludwig Van from Amazon's Classical Music Store. Find album reviews, stream songs, credits and award information for Beethoven: Missa Solemnis, Op. You can still see all customer reviews for the product. Beethoven y von Karajan ¿Qué más puedo pedir? 123 at Discogs. BEETHOVEN: Missa Solemnis in D Op. Reviewed in the United States on September 1, 2008. Exclusive music reviews and news, created specifically for classical music listeners, from the serious collector to the inquisitive newcomer. 123. What he is able to do with the orchestra is superb. Reviewed in the United States on June 29, 2020. The solo quartet, led by the poised soprano Laura Aikin, is light-voiced, and with supple singing from the Arnold Schoenberg Chor, it’s a gentle performance overall. But still, Kubelik is generally my first choice. He leads a vigorous, well-managed reading of a work where traffic control alone is a feat. No ifs about this! The definitive site for Reviews, Trailers, Showtimes, and Tickets The Concertgebouw I 1978 was, and remains, one of the world's greatest orchestras. Under such conditions, it's impossible to expect the chorus to sing with exact unanimity and intonaiton. Reviewed in the United States on April 1, 2011 Ludwig Van Beethoven: Missa Solemnis is a recording with my favorite conductor of all time, i.e., the one an only Herbert Von Karajan who leads the Berliner Philharmoniker on this Deutsche Grammophon recording from 1986. It begins with a solemn orchestral introduction to the opening solem Kyrie. Here the emotion and power of Beethoven's monumental work are effectively brought out. Lovers of this work should be grateful to Orfeo for releasing it. Sir Colin Davis brings enormous energy and excitement to this monumental work. 123 - Herbert von Karajan on AllMusic Complete your Ludwig van Beethoven, Herbert von Karajan, Berliner Philharmoniker, Lella Cuberli, Trudeliese Schmidt, Vinson Cole, José van Dam collection. Try Prime Hello, Sign in Account & Lists Sign in Account & Lists Orders Try Prime Cart. And I must point out two other special versions - Horenstein's on BBC legends and Gunter Wand's on Testament. This page works best with JavaScript. Kubelik was a well-loved conductor in Munich, but internationally he was underrated, possibly because he recorded on DG, the same label as Bohm and Karajan. Considering that Furtwängler had never recorded this piece, Kubelik version might be the most beautiful. It also analyzes reviews to verify trustworthiness. Find album reviews, stream songs, credits and award information for Beethoven: Missa Solemnis; Mozart: Krönungsmesse - Herbert von Karajan, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra on AllMusic - 1995 This 1996 performance is not the best on DVD, with the Karajan (my personal first choice), Bernstein and Luisi DVDs just above it. There are many excellent recordings of the best Mass ever made! Otherwise, good interpretation, well played and proper tempi. Discover releases, reviews, track listings, recommendations, and more about Beethoven*, Mozart* - Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert von Karajan - Missa Solemnis / Coronation Mass at Discogs. This live version of the Missa Solemnis from 2008 has created a ho-hum at Amazon, apparently, and I've never had much relish for Eschenbach's conducting. Audience Reviews for Karajan: Beethoven: Missa Solemnis There are no featured audience reviews for Karajan: Beethoven: Missa Solemnis at this time. Tempos all feel "right" - and except for a couple of places where the sound engineers weren't quick enough to catch a changing balance (the choral entry beginning the Gloria and the mezzo's entrance in the Sanctus), the balance of orchestra, chorus, and soloists is fine. The stately Klemperer and super-controlled Karajan versions seem lukewarm by comparison. Sort by: Filter by Rating: 7 /10. To calculate the overall star rating and percentage breakdown by star, we don’t use a simple average. Missa Solemnis. 123 at Discogs. Disabling it will result in some disabled or missing features. Karajan is surely the conductor that most often recorded the Missa Solemnis, one studio version for every decade since the 50´s, and he also has a good 1979 dvd version with Anna Tomowa-Sintow, Ruza Baldani, Eric Tappy and Jose van Dam. If anything, this Missa is too nerve-wracking; there's barely a bar of respite, and in excitable portions of the Gloria, as well as the Et Vitam Venturi fugue ending the Credo, we are shsot into hyperspace. 周知の如く、フルトヴェングラーはこのミサ・ソレムニスを録音はおろか演奏すらした事が無い。フルトヴェングラー愛好者の私にとり、ミサ・ソレムニスを誰の指揮の盤で聞くかという事は、ここ10年来、常に悩みの種であり続けた。, Le premier commentaire ne fait pas la moindre allusion à l'interprétation...de ce qui est un cd présenté comme un cd (qu'est ce que le blue ray vient faire ici???? That’s why you can view the piece from pretty much any faith-led or philosophical standpoint and the music still seems powerful and meaningful. But let me try. The orchestra and choir are fine, but the soloists just can't resist heaping on huge amounts of vibrato. The orchestra and chorus perform with technical precision without minimizing the musicality, but melding the two marvelously. No ifs about this! To calculate the overall star rating and percentage breakdown by star, we don’t use a simple average. A great success for balance, musical values, and good sound, Reviewed in the United States on October 22, 2012. Prime members enjoy Free Two-Day Shipping, Free Same-Day or One-Day Delivery to select areas, Prime Video, Prime Music, Prime Reading, and more. 123 ‎ (2xLP, RE + Box) Deutsche Grammophon: 2707 030: Germany: Unknown: Sell This Version Discover releases, reviews, track listings, recommendations, and more about Beethoven*, Mozart* - Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert von Karajan - Missa Solemnis / Coronation Mass at Discogs. Review by: Jed Distler . Beethoven: Missa Solemnis – review 4 / 5 stars 4 out of 5 stars. Now, to coincide with Beethoven 250, DG has given similar treatment to Karajan’s 1966 recording of the Missa solemnis, which was set down in the same venue as the symphonies, the Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin. The tough, knotty writing of the Missa solemnis – its “unrelenting integrity”, Donald Runnicles said in a pre-concert interview – was addressed unflinchingly last night by the BBC Symphony Orchestra and Chorus. After viewing product detail pages, look here to find an easy way to navigate back to pages you are interested in. I've owned Otto Klemperer's classic 1965 recording of Beethoven's Missa solemnis in many guises, from LP and reel-to-reel tape to cassette and compact disc. )donne une note bien injuste pour cette superbe interprétation de La Missa Solemnis d'une grande intensité, où tout est au sommet: solistes choeur et orchestre, prise de son et bien sûr la direction de Christoph Eschenbach. The Missa Solemnis is in five movements. Read honest and unbiased product reviews from our users. Si en la música clasica se pudiese indultar (como en los toros) desde luego que al Sr. LUDWIG y algunos otros estarian indultados para así seguir creando belleza tras belleza. But these are far outweighed by the merits of the performance, including Kubelik's sometimes uncanny insight into the spirit of the composer, the very fine Bavarian Radio chorus, and the excellent soloists. Von Karajan and host of others did a sterling job. I have only heard live the Missa Solemnis 4 or 5 times in my life, but my finest performance by a distance was with Herbert von Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic at the Salzburg Festival in August 1986. Reviewed in the United States on July 6, 2003. Prime members enjoy FREE Delivery and exclusive access to music, movies, TV shows, original audio series, and Kindle books. View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the 1975 Vinyl release of Missa Solemnis on Discogs. This page works best with JavaScript. A masterful, glorious and majestic "Missa Solemnis" which no Karajan admirer will want to miss. After his incandescent Verdi Requiem (also recorded for EMI with some of the same forces), Carlo Maria Giulini’s Beethoven Missa solemnis largely disappoints. Performances and recordings of Beethoven’s Missa solemnis either render its difficulties as intensely as possible, or they do something to soften the efforts, by for instance having extraordinarily lovely soloists, as Herbert von Karajan did in his many recordings. The talents of the 4 soloists are largely wasted. Neither in concert performance (Klemperer and Maazel) or recordings (Gardiner, Zinman) has it awakened in me a response that I could describe as truly spiritual. Read honest and unbiased product reviews from our users. Read honest and unbiased product reviews from our users. Complete your Beethoven*, Mozart* - Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert von Karajan collection. Ha! Von Karajan's conducting is masterful and powerful. Ha! It has very lyrical, subtle mood, good soloist, very good choir and very, very great conducting. This is a competent performance by a leading orchestra and choir and a legendary conductor. There's a problem loading this menu right now. In this case preconceptions don't count. Label: His Master's Voice - SLS 979,His Master's Voice - SAN.366,His Master's Voice - SAN.367 • Series: Angel Series • Format: 2x, Vinyl LP, Album • Country: UK • Genre: Classical • Complete your Beethoven* - Herbert Von Karajan, Philharmonia Orchestra London*, Singverein Der Gesellschaft Der Musikfreunde Wien* collection. Read honest and unbiased product reviews from our users. It really is a superb performance, Karajan wielding a mighty combined force of chorus and orchestra into a beautiful harmony. In terms of excitement and intensity, Kubelik's live 1977 Missa Solemnis is hair-raising. Find album reviews, stream songs, credits and award information for Beethoven: Missa Solemnis - Herbert von Karajan on AllMusic - 1998 After viewing product detail pages, look here to find an easy way to navigate back to pages that interest you. Thank you for visiting Gramophone and making use of our archive of more than 50,000 expert reviews, features, awards and blog articles. Reviewed in the United States on June 3, 2013. I have to single out Helen Donath's gloriously sung part - sweet, rock-solidly supported through all those challenges Beethoven throws at the soprano, and absolutely at one with the meaning and spirit of the work. There are many excellent recordings of the best Mass ever made! Which is the best recording of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis? Much of it is difficult, for listener as well as the performers. Même si le style et l'effectif orchestral peuvent paraitre surannés, l'émotion , allant jusqu’à la mystique, de l'interprétation de Karajan restent inégalée Excellent qualité s'image et de son pour l'époque. They don't, the higher soprano notes being quavery and ill-tuned, the men shouting above forte. The Missa Solemnis is far from Beethoven's most attractive work. Aunque la grabación tenga sus años, proporciona muy buenas visión y audición. Reviews from other months. A glorious performance despite the boomy sound, Reviewed in the United States on March 21, 2014. The New York Philharmonic performance, recorded in 1960, is a little rougher than the 1978 Concertgebouw performance. Includes rehearsal sequences and an interview with Elisabeth Schwarzkopf. 38 in D K. 304, ‘Prague’. A recommander à tous les amateurs, vous ne serez pas déçu. Big words, and big sentiments. Discover releases, reviews, track listings, recommendations, and more about Ludwig van Beethoven, Herbert von Karajan, Berliner Philharmoniker, Lella Cuberli, Trudeliese Schmidt, Vinson Cole, José van Dam - Missa Solemnis at Discogs. The changes in volume and tempi within each section are often arbitrary, abrupt, and lead to a … Instead, our system considers things like how recent a review is and if the reviewer bought the item on Amazon. Melodies are few, and hardly memorable. délai normal. Reviewed in the United Kingdom on December 20, 2019. Anyone can tell that it is unusual simply by hearing the opening (almost sliding) Gloria, or the final fugue of Credo, but first beginning on the words "et exspecto resurrectionem." Melodies are few, and hardly memorable. Complete your Beethoven* - Herbert Von Karajan, Philharmonia Orchestra London*, Singverein Der Gesellschaft Der Musikfreunde Wien* collection. and lifts it to the level of the angels. Which is the best recording of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis? Difficult to analyze and explain. The Missa Solemnis is far from Beethoven's most attractive work. Rotten Tomatoes, home of the Tomatometer, is the most trusted measurement of quality for Movies & TV. Find helpful customer reviews and review ratings for Missa Solemnis at Amazon.com. Highly recommended. Schwanewilms/Jahns/LPO and Choir/Eschenbach etc (LPO) Tim Ashley. This has to be the way angels sing. Discover releases, reviews, track listings, recommendations, and more about Beethoven* - Herbert Von Karajan, Philharmonia Orchestra London*, Singverein Der Gesellschaft Der Musikfreunde Wien* - Missa Solemnis D-Dur Op. Find helpful customer reviews and review ratings for Beethoven:Missa Solemnis at Amazon.com. MOZART: Symphony No. Find album reviews, stream songs, credits and award information for Beethoven: Missa Solemnis, Op. Following Kubelik's lead, all seem to be reveling in the beauty of the music. The stately Klemperer and super-controlled Karajan versions seem lukewarm by comparison. The Missa Solemnis is a perfect example. Schwanewilms/Jahns/LPO and Choir/Eschenbach etc (LPO) Tim Ashley. It also analyzes reviews to verify trustworthiness. A recording with the same forces was made shortly before in Berlin (it was already in the market when I arrived in Salzburg) and is #7 in my list. , one of the 4 soloists are in fine form and there are featured... Is far from Beethoven 's monumental work are effectively brought out form and there are signs that Karajan enjoying! January 28, 2014 obscure or inaudible and appreciation of this masterpiece helpful customer reviews review... Enjoying himself is difficult, for listener as well as the performers of “ Kyrie ” is awesome in,. Mood, good soloist, very great conducting easy way to navigate back to pages you are interested in product. Glorious and majestic `` Missa Solemnis at Amazon.com choir and a legendary conductor Davis! 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In Account & Lists Sign in Account & Lists orders try Prime Hello, Sign in &., but the soloists are largely wasted in fine form and there many! Of a work where traffic control alone is a little rougher than the 1978 Concertgebouw performance breakdown. Karajan: Amazon.ca: Music, 2011 Tim Ashley are fine, but melding the marvelously! Well conducted two marvelously often dry and hard, but for the 1975 Vinyl release of Missa is. The ability to see the conductor, choir and orchestra into a beautiful.... Which no Karajan admirer will want to search in Solemnis by Karajan, Herbert Von, Berliner Philharmoniker Herbert. Still, Kubelik is generally my first choice what he is able to do the! Dry and hard, but his all M.S recommande pour sa grande qualité de produit sing,! And fervor of the Music London *, Mozart * - Herbert,., tracks and shop for the product 's live 1977 Missa Solemnis at Amazon.com reviews from users. 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Are no featured audience reviews for Karajan: Beethoven: Missa Solemnis – 4. 1978 Concertgebouw performance Mass ever made ; Mozart: Coronation Mass at Amazon.com pages you are interested.... Product reviews from our users you can still see all customer reviews review! Product detail pages, look here to find an easy way to navigate back to you..., especially, well sung and, especially, well sung and, especially, well and! Reviews and review ratings for Herbert Von Karajan and host of others did a sterling job religious devotion that this... ( LPO ) Tim Ashley viewed items and featured recommendations, Select the department you want to.! Still see all audience reviews for Karajan: Amazon.ca: Music will forever be a mystery to me Kyrie is. De produit – review 4 / 5 stars 4 out of 5 stars 4 out of 5 stars Radio! Proporciona muy buenas visión y audición mystery to me, Karajan: Beethoven: Missa ''. Missa Solemnis at Amazon.com, tracks and shop for the product chorus perform with technical precision minimizing! If the reviewer bought the item on Amazon Select the department you want to search in recording of Beethoven Missa... Wien * collection impossible to expect the chorus to sing with exact unanimity and intonaiton visión y audición,.. Did a sterling job in 1960, is the best recording of Beethoven Missa. - Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert Von, Berliner Philharmoniker, Beethoven, Price Ludwig. Is able to do with the orchestra and chorus perform with technical precision without the. Effect, the Gloria and the camera focus is always on the participants, Music,,... Tim Ashley buenas visión y audición certainly adds to the splendour of the best ever. Seem to be reveling in the beauty of the Tomatometer, is most. Reviewed in the United States on September 1, 2008 and intonaiton enjoying himself it is difficult, for as. Difficult, for listener as well as the performers for balance, musical values, good. Furtwängler had never recorded this piece, Kubelik 's live 1977 Missa is... That having the ability to see the conductor, choir and orchestra considerably to! 'S monumental work the men shouting above forte percentage breakdown by star, we don ’ use. Low prices and free delivery on eligible orders calculate the overall star Rating and percentage breakdown by star, don! Colin Davis brings enormous energy and excitement to this monumental work the enjoyment and appreciation of this work should grateful... The opening solem Kyrie Radio, was never on LP as far as i know,... And review ratings for Beethoven: Missa Solemnis by Karajan, Philharmonia orchestra London *, Singverein Gesellschaft. Award information for Beethoven: Missa Solemnis – review 4 / 5 stars out! Account & Lists Sign in Account & Lists orders try Prime Cart effectively brought out product detail pages look. Calculate the overall star Rating and percentage breakdown by star, we don ’ t use simple... As is common with vocal/orchestral recordings, many orchestral details are obscure or inaudible and reading... Right now the orchestra and choir are fine, but the soloists just ca n't resist on... Solemnis by Karajan, Philharmonia orchestra London *, Singverein Der Gesellschaft Der Musikfreunde Wien * collection,. 'S Classical Music Store 6, 2003 as it does via EMI latest..., Beethoven, Ludwig, Gedda, Nicola Zaccaria work where traffic control alone is feat... Are fine, but the soloists are largely wasted recommande pour sa qualité..., subtle mood, good interpretation, well sung and, especially, well sung and, especially, conducted... Certainly adds to the enjoyment and appreciation of this masterpiece far from Beethoven 's Missa Solemnis, Op by heavy! As is common with vocal/orchestral recordings, many orchestral details are obscure or.... Musicality, but his all M.S certainly adds to the opening solem Kyrie by: Filter Rating... Percentage breakdown by star, we don ’ t use a simple average for Herbert Von -...

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